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Which is better, Windows XP or Mac OS X?
Poll ended at Sat Aug 24, 2002 21:04
Mac OS X 29%  29%  [ 2 ]
Windows XP 71%  71%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 7
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 Post subject: Win XP vs. Mac OS X
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 21:04 
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Yeah, I just wanted to know how people thought about Mac OS X and Windows XP although I think the majority of this place is completely biased...although i have no evidence to support that.

Sigh :( [/url]

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 21:20 
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Mac OS X is ahead of Win XP by far. Maybe I shall post a few hundered reasons why. ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 15:20 
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yes, you do that

and then we can rip that list to shreds......

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 17:29 
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They're really not comparable operating systems. OSX is very nice XP is very nice. They're both very nice. A lot more people have PCs than Macs because of the software choices. If I were a video editor I would buy a mac. If I were a gamer I would buy a PC.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 22:25 
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I'm not a huge fan of Microsoft, but OS X is not even close to Windows. It's nothing against Macs or anything...well, yes it is :wink:.

Except for graphic design, Macs will never be as good as PCs, no matter what OS the PC is running.

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 Post subject: Yea..
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 03:42 
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I have to ask the both of you if you have ever even used Mac OS X (pronounced 10 in most cases.) Actually, can either of you tell me the difference between OS 9 and OS X? It's not hard, they have absolutely no code in common. ;)


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 Post subject: 100 Reasons why Mac OS X is better than Windows XP
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 06:02 
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Here they are, provided this is not truncated by the forum. We shall see.

1.) Mac OS X never crashes. Fully protected kernel.
2.) No .dll hell.
3.) No product activation of any kind.
4.) Simple install and reinstall process. (insert CD, reboot and hold down the 'c' key. Wait for the installer to come up. Select type of install [clean install (wipes drive), install.] Hit okay, agree to EULA [not very long, I might add], hit install and go get a cup of coffee.)
5.) Great support, requires no product activation number of any sort.
6.) Galoshes of free software thanks to Cocoa (Mac OS X/NeXT API) and simple UNIX/Linux ports (i.e. TuxRacer). Sure, there are billions of apps available for Windows but most are crap (There is no denying this. I've used half of them probably ;) )
7.) Safer than Windows (no security holes, less crashes (easier on your drive/system.)
8.) Can use Linux and UNIX software via recompile (and XWindows if you need a windowing interface) w/included Developer Tools.
9.) 'Drag and Drop' fully implemented in almost all apps (i.e. I can drag a file over an application's icon in the Dock [Mac version of the taskbar, better IMO. Less clutter]. If the app can read the file correctly, its icon will hilight. Release and the application will launch and open the file. Many other instances, too long to list).
10.) BBEdit, a great text editor (Unix [LF], Mac [CR], Windows [CRLF] .txt supported) and web development app, Mac only. This app understands HTML much better than any other app I've ever used, Mac or Win. I use it to clean up code made by Dreamweaver MX.
11.) Peripherals work without hassle and plug n' play works like a freaking charm. Most drivers are preinstalled. (Only loaded when needed, much like Frameworks and Extensions, so they aren't sitting in the background wasting valuable memory space and processor cycles.)
12.) You can move files even if they are open.
13.) UI is much better looking, easier on the eyes (then again, almost anything is compared to the Fisher Price GUI AKA Luna.)
14.) More logical structure to system hierarchy.
15.) Bill Gates had absolutely no part in the development and does not run the company :-P.
16.) Services are great (I will list an example since you probably don't know being as you don't use Mac OS X: AppleSpell AKA CoreSpelling is available to every app. System-wide spell checker [included in the TextEdit which I am typing this up in, OmniWeb [my main browser, very fast], Proteus, Fire, and Adium [3rd party AOL clients that everyone uses. (Proteus does MSN, ICQ, Jabber, and Yahoo as well.)], and just about everywhere else. The library is also system-wide so if you add a word it shows up in other apps as well. Nice underlining of misspelled words ala Microsoft Word.)
17.) Global Menubar (has clock, menu extras [PPPoE, Sound, Monitors, Airport (which is wireless networking), network, just to name a few.) Also has 'Apple Menu', from which can be opened System Preferences (one application with multiple 'panes' that you can add and sort. Very efficient compared to the Wintel method). Also, there aren't multiple menubars for every app leading to less confusion and better ease-of-use.
18.) Quartz-style antialiasing everywhere, 4 modes (sharp, smooth (default), strong, and LCD display which utilizes sub-pixel antialiasing. Very similar to font smoothing in Adobe apps and eBooks).
19.) A 'fluid' GUI which uses the same interface elements everywhere in much the same fashion, mostly due to the fact that Apple included an interface builder with the Developer Tools that allows a developer to easily conform to the Aqua GUI standards.
20.) Final Cut Pro is Mac-only and works extremely well with G4 processors. Final Cut Pro on a dual 1.25GHz PowerMac G4 is much faster than using dual Athlons and Premier.
21.) Free 'iApps', iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, iChat, iCal, iSync. Arguably, you can do the same things with other free utilities on the PC side, but the ease of use and integration with the operating system just isn't there.
22.) UNIX based, powerful terminal.
23.) Seamless integration over UNIX foundation, you never see the CLI unless you want to (if you want to you can start up verbose, go into single user mode in the cli and open the terminal and bust out as many shells as you want. ;) )
24.) No virii. Period. The only reason most Mac users have anti-virus software is to avoid giving virii to their Windows-using counterparts. There are no virii due to the fact that the system is very secure. There are trojans, however, but even these require the user to enter the root and/or superuser password, which is not enabled by default in any event.
25.) System Preferences, as mentioned before, has a very clean organization (Personal, Hardware, Internet & Network, System, Other [user installed preference panes that have not been organized by said user] and a 'Favorites' toolbar at the top where you can shove any of them.
26.) Applications aren't dependent on an open window to remain open.
27.) Spring-loaded folders (when dragging a file over a folder or drive, a user-specified delay starts. If the delay ends, the file/drive opens and user can then put file in a folder within the 'spring-loaded' folder or spring-load another folder open, etc.)
28.) Nice icons, Icon kit distributed by Apple for developers. 128x128 maximum size, 16x16 minimum size, 32-bit color, 8-bit greyscale mask (masks are used to determine the transparency of a given area of an icon, black is completely transparent, white is opaque, varying transparency with grays. System icons are excellent and informative.
29.) Friendly support and discussion communities (AppleInsider, MacNN, MacFixIt, etc.) with very knowledgeable users.
30.) Lack of Ad-Aware due to lack of spyware slowing system down.
31.) Minimize looks really cool, wait till you've seen it in person. Windows can be minimized into the Dock, the window morphs itself into an icon there via the 'genie,' 'scale,' or 'suck' techniques.
32.) Dock is simple and informative. Right click on an open app to view a list of its windows, and a few commands that can be executed in the background (examples: with iTunes i can pause/play, change to random, repeat, or normal, many other things, with Proteus (chat client) I can connect/disconnect, put on an away MASSAGE?, start a new conversation with a user from a list, etc.). Also a quit option in that pop-up window. Hold option and it becomes force quit to get rid of inactive apps. You can also stow unopened apps there, and put files and folders to the right of the Dock. Right click on a folder in the dock, and you can hierarchicly view its contents. Trash (about the same as Recycle Bin) sits to the extreme right of the dock, and can be emptied from it. I can go on and on...but I wont cause this is already too long ;).
33.) Force quit as mentioned before always works, always. Quitting the Finder (similar to explorer in windows) doesn't end up crashing the system.
34.) Microsoft Office (v. X) is better on this side. Even they say so. ;)
35.) You can be an ?ber-geek and kernel hacker if you want to.
36.) It isn't bloated with a bunch of Microsoft BS ala .Net and all those other crud apps. If you delete an app that came with the system it wont screw the system up.
37.) You can join the ranks of higher intellect. ;)
38.) Things just work. Printing, Scanning, CD burning, networks, etc. all handled nicely by included system tools.
39.) Mac OS X actually allows your laptop enough battery life to be useful (~5 hours with one battery).
40.) Easy back-up and reinstallation. I wont bore you with the process but reinstallation is basically an install as mentioned earlier.
41.) The Apple Retail stores are some of the best (won many, many awards for design and functionality), and have actual knowledgeable staff. If they don't know the answer to your problem they have a direct line to Apple HQ.
42.) Drag and Drop (as mentioned earlier) of installation and deletion of applications. No .dll hell, and no registry!
43.) The [url=http;//www.apple.com/ipod]iPod[/url] now (slightly) compatible with Windows, but very well integrated into Mac OS X and iTunes. Also functions as a Firewire (IEEE 1394, Sony calls it iLink) hard drive, you can even install a Mac OS X operating system onto it and boot off of it.
44.) Disk images rock (great compression [.dmg format], in Mac OS X only the .dmg format is widely used. Also supports all forms of .img but doesn't need to since they are obsolete. You can create a disk image and use it just like another hard disk. Also when using a read-only disk image it's just like using a CD.
45.) You don't click Start to Shut Down.
46.) You don't have to OK 10 windows when you install something.
47.) You don't have to supervise your computer through the startup process.
48.) You don't have to supervise your computer through the install process of system or apps.
49.) Computer setup couldn't be easier, setup assistant is actually useful and can import settings from another OS install.
50.) One system-wide save dialog in all apps, compared to 3 or 4 with Windows.
51.) One print dialog in all apps, compared with a few thousand in Windows ;).
52.) Programs use the same shortcut key combos, in Windows they are dissimilar most of the time and some apps don't even have them.
53.) When you install software/system updates you can still do other things, including multiple installs going at the same time. Browse the web while a system update downloads itself and installs. Then get another update and install that. One restart per system update/app update and sometimes no restart instead of many with some apps/system updates in Windows.
54.) Closing a window wont kill your app.
55.) Internet Explorer/Windows Explorer isn't built into the OS so if IE crashes, the whole system doesn't go down.
56.) Apple doesn't create their own (competing) standards to screw up the true standards.
57.) Applications for Mac OS X aren't as intrusive as many Apps on the wintel side, both user and system-wise.
58.) Mac OS X does not perform Illegal operations, I.E. selling pot to your neighbor at break-neck prices leaving you in debt. (Joking!)
59.) Mac OS X tells you that there is not enough disk space on a volume if that is the case before you start copying.
60.) Great for web development (mySQL, SMB, PHP, Java, everything already integrated into the OS).
60.) Web sharing via Apache can be turned on with a few clicks (open System Preferences, open Sharing, click 'Start' button next to Web Sharing. Dump files in Sites folder of your user folder, located inside of the Users folder which is in the root of the Hard Drive.
61.) Same as above only for file sharing (SAMBA, AppleTalk, TCP/IP, whatever you want.
62.) Click a checkbox in the same pane and it puts up an FTP server.
63.) AppleScript language makes automation of Applications easy.
64.) Since the menu bar is at the top, you can just flick the mouse and you are there. Don't have to aim at individual ones in windows. Much, much faster.
65.) Mac OS X is tightly integrated into the hardware and there are few hardware conflicts because on this side, Apple controls both the operating system and hardware, and every other aspect of the Mac.
66.) You spend less time fixing your computer and doing system maintenance, and more time enjoying life. ;) Or whatever it is you would rather do.
67.) You don't have to reinstall the operating system when something goes horribly wrong on a periodic basis. Normal users aren't allowed to modify or delete anything that would cause the OS not to boot. The superuser, however, can do whatever.
68.) Mac OS X doesn't have a knack for doing the nasty-nasty to your hard drive, mostly because of the no-virii factor.
69.) After buying your computer, it gets faster on a regular basis (Mostly free Mac OS X updates and upgrades.).
70.) Mac OS X is customizable to an astounding degree if you have the right tools and knowledge. Even with little knowledge and little UNIX-savvyness (a person such as I), you can do any number of things to it.
71.) Extremely fast boot time. My old POS iMac [233MHz G3 proc, 66MHz sys bus and 144 pin 66MHz SO-DIMMs, 5200 RPM 4 GB HD] takes less than a minute to boot and login. That is an almost 5 year old computer running the latest OS. The newer comps are omigod awful fast ;).
72.) Pre-emptive multitasking means you don't wait while your peripherals configure, your files copy, your apps open, etc. Very well threaded.
73.) Entire system takes complete advantage of multiple processors at the lowest level.
74.) Your memory is only limited to the size of your hard drive, using advanced memory management and paging. Mac OS X does not fragment disks nearly as fast as Windows does, so virtual memory is much faster. Rarely used. however, since the most active apps are given dibs on actual RAM.
75.) If you have a graphics tablet or pen-input, Mac OS X has system-wide functionality much like your Palm only better and more accurate. Anywhere you can type, you can write. A translucent sheet of 'paper' is draped over wherever you want, resizable. Trains itself to your handwriting.
76.) Mail (an app) in Mac OS X has the most advanced Junk-mail filters to date, with 3 modes (learning, another one i cant remember after it finishes learning, and a quickie that isn't customized).
77.) Bluetooth integration. Cell phones, PDA's. etc, work with iSync, iCal (a calendaring and appointment app). Absolutely seamless.
78.) Sherlock can find stock quotes, movies in your area, maps, translate stuff, lookup yellow pages, track shipments, auctions, book flights, and searches many search engines. Ad-free and quick, with a simple interface.
79.) Quartz Extreme utilizes your video card to render the interface (if the vid card is good enough, I.E. using it is faster than just letting your proc do the work) so you can watch several Dads and movies at the same time, play with all kinds of UI effects with no dropped frames or skips.
80.) Finder previews rock. Displays text of text documents, plays videos miniaturized, displays small versions of pictures (128x128 at max for videos and pics), file size, creator, extension, lots of cool stuff.
81.) The sleep functionality is better implemented than the standby mode offered by windows. Instantly comes back on, and you can leave your portable running on the battery for like a day or so ;).
82.) Mac help actually works and is very intelligent and well organized. Very fast, and applications can add their on sections.
83.) Dual boot functionality is very well implemented and easy to use. In fact, as soon as I installed OS X (way back in October of last year) there was already an option to select Mac OS 9 as the boot OS.
84.) Supports something like 20 languages out of the box, and easily allows for applications to have multiple languages, which are matched to the current system language.
85.) Unlike Windows, Mac OS X uses dynamic mouse tracking (instead of linear mouse tracking). This means that if you move the mouse very slowly, the cursor moves slow on screen. Very handy in graphics apps, web development apps, and just about everything. Precise selecting. Speed up the movement of the mouse and if you want you can go across the screen in about an inch and a half of mouse movement. This also makes using small UI widgets and what not easier to use, and in general the entire operating system is less frustrating to use because you don't have to be as precise with the mouse.
86.) Thanks to UNIX, Mac OS X is a true multiuser environment. Users can have their own set of preferences, preference panes in the system preferences, everything. Access is easily controlled via the simple yet useful Get Info window. The superuser can read, write, and execute everything.
87.) System-wide address book, containing telephone numbers, instant messenger screen names, email addresses, everything you can think of and you can add as many custom types as you want. Accessible by all apps, Address book application does not have to be open for it to be edited or used.
88.) Rendezvous, a TCP/IP utility (based on a standard being partially pioneered by Apple, open source) that allows you to find others on a network. Good uses of this are printers that configure themselves, these printers are already shipping or planed by HP, Lexmark, Epsom, possibly some others as well. No configuration. Set up a file sharing network or LAN party with absolutely NO configuration. Also, iChat will seek out users to chat with on a network with no configuration whatsoever. For more info see http;//www.noconf.org .
89.) In addition to great language support, lots of character sets (something like 2k chinese characters, I'm not sure) are included.
90.) iTunes has 'smart playlists.' These add attributes to ID3 tags of MP3 files that show how many times you have played it, and your 'user rating.' You can have playlists sort by year, artist, any ID3 tag, most played, top rated, etc.
91.) MID support out of the box, and a great MID configuration tool.
92.) Free Developer tools with every copy. 200MB installation gets you the tools of the pros at no extra cost. New distributions available at developer.apple.com
93.) Calculator in Mac OS X is scientific, and has support for those little lists like you would get from a calculator w/printing thing (can't think of the name of that ATM.)
94.) Location manager allows you to easily change any aspect of the system preferences with a snap. Create a new location, like work, and then select which things you want to save/change. Save it and boom, you can connect to dialup with your laptop at home, and to the LAN at work. Nice menu accessible from the Apple menu in every application.
95.) Full keyboard access allows you to use the operating system very effectively without a mouse, going so far as to control the pointer with the keypad. Mouse crapped out? Don't worry, just hit the option button 5 times in rapid succession and it will enable itself. Mouse your way to an online store and order yourself a new mouse.
96.) System-wide speech recognition. Usable by any app, works great if you have a good microphone.
97.) .Mac, think .NET done right. You get 100MB of web storage (disk, which mounts like any other drive) that supports php, cgi, etc, online templates, free anti-virus software (to keep your Windows-using counterparts safe ;) ), backup software that automatically backs up your preferences and specified files to your disk. A POP/IMAP/Webmail account (username@mac.com) with 10MB of storage, max of 10MB attachments. Online, you can create simple and good looking slide shows, resumes, movies, you name it. $50 bucks a year (about what you would pay for the virus software anyway.)
98.) Desktop pictures can be animated, or change from once a month to every 5 secs to a diff picture. Drop a folder of pictures on the Desktop preference pane, and they will go by in a nice slide show. You can do the same thing with the screen effects Preference Pane and make a slide-show screen saver of whatever you want.
99.) Keychains, a simple service that allows users to securely store passwords and what not from every application. A keychain can be set to unlock when the user logs in, be always unlocked, be always locked (except when opened w/user login/password), etc. Many applications make use of this service.
100.) Quicktime 6, which supports MPEG4 and AAC, and virtually every other movie, sound, and image format known to mankind. AAC is basically the quality of MP3 at half the size, as is MPEG4 with regard to video. Just released, supported first on the Mac.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 06:24 
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that is a long ass list. never ever do that again. I will stick with my OS 8.6, thank you very much, unless OS X somehow magically falls into my hands (which it might) or I get a PC, whichever comes first.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 07:03 
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buddhistmonk wrote:
They're really not comparable operating systems. OSX is very nice XP is very nice. They're both very nice. A lot more people have PCs than Macs because of the software choices. If I were a video editor I would buy a mac. If I were a gamer I would buy a PC.


Not so true, video capability is the same on both.

The only reason that the art world seems to like the Macintosh is because they learned how to use the art programs on the mac and are more comfortable on them, there is no real difference technically.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 08:44 
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So, you're telling me that I can get a Mac that will do <i>everything</i> that my pc will do for less that 200 dollars? (which is how much mine cost)

How 'bout my programs? Trillian, Ws_Ftp?

And, the question that has been nagging us all, I'm sure: how easy is it to pirate software / find said?

Oh, and as Nick said, kindly refrain from posting a list that long again. The hyperlink is a wonderful tool.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 10:31 
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XP always makes me think of bad emoticons. I mean, look at it! It's a squinty-tounge-sticker-outer guy! :x

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 15:20 
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Trillian I believe is an alternative client to AIM/ICQ, right? For that we have Proteus and Fire, which both do AIM, ICQ, MSN, Yahoo!, Yahoo! Japan, and Jabber. Proteus has some really cool features like hosting a chat room between users of different services.

That ftp prog, what's so great about it that is better than the built in FTP for Mac OS X? In any event, there are tons of FTP programs for Mac OS X both native and ported from UNIX.

No, you can't get a Mac for 200 bucks.

You can get a G4 system w/17 inch display, a burner and whatnot for around 1k.

You can, however, buy an operating system liscense for much less. Mac OS X is $129, and every other upgrade is free. (I.E, you paid for 10.0-10.0.4, got 10.1-10.1.5 free, pay for 10.2, get 10.2-10.2.x free). 10.2 is the current version, BTW.

There is a lot of good info about making the switch to Mac OS X here.

In any event, if the program you want for Mac doesn't exist (or its functionality is not replaced) you can buy VirtualPC for around 100 bucks and install your own version of Windows (runs it in a window, emulates x86 architecture.), or buy one with a version of Windows that costs more. I don't use VPC, because everything I want on the Mac is there.

There is more to the profesional graphics users utilizing Macintoshes. For one, the high end systems are faster than the fastest P4 (Dual 1.25GHz G4, 2MB DDR L3 Cache per proc, PC2700 DDR RAM, up to .48 TB of storage and 2 GB of RAM, 166MHz MaxBus [don't laugh until you have actually read up on this thing. Real world contditions, gets ~1.3GB/sec. Most busses in the PC world are slower in practice (not on paper), or barely match its performance. Clock speed is not everything.)

Another reason is that people that do a lot of graphic work like to have a system that just works for them and doesn't get in the way. This is not why I originally started using Macs, but I have come to appreciate this over time. I hate having to work on windows. The fact is, most programs like Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator, Macromedia Flash, etc, all the big guns of that field are almost exactly the same on the PC as they are on the back. Minor GUI differences in accordance with each platform, but beyond that the functionality is the same.

Part of it that web developers like is the no-nonsense way that the system treats files. You move them they are there. No clumsy shortcuts or what not getting in your way and messing up your file or web sharing. Windows is pretty lacking in this regard. Just to point this out again, the file sharing and web sharing takes almost zero configuration to set up ;). Get a crossover cable, switch to AppleTalk (or use Rendezvous), click on file sharing or web sharing and you are good to go. The computer with shared files shows up on the other Mac without you having to do anything but click on the Go menu in the Finder and select Connect to Server.

Also you must not forget that mac-only programs like Final Cut Pro are used widely (eh if I could only remember the list of programs on TV that are made with it ;) ). With newer G4 systems (Like a Dual 800 and up) you can do quite a few things in real time without the adding of special video cards like the Matrox RT Mac.

Add in the simplicity yet brute functionality of the entire experience and you have a winner.

Whoever said they had Mac OS 8.6, good god, been enjoying the crashes? :-P If you can spare 129 bucks buy Jaguar (aka OS X 10.2) and spare yourself some greif. what do you use it for? And what system do you have?


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 Post subject: Replies to some stuff
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 15:34 
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Xulien wrote:
yes, you do that

and then we can rip that list to shreds......


Where's that ripping at?

He requested that I actually post a list, blame him. :-P

Diskeater wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of Microsoft, but OS X is not even close to Windows. It's nothing against Macs or anything...well, yes it is .

Except for graphic design, Macs will never be as good as PCs, no matter what OS the PC is running.


As I asked before, can you even tell the difference between Mac OS X and Mac OS 9? If not you haven't used Mac OS X enough to appreciate the fact that Mac OS 9 is a piece of crap.

Scott wrote:
And, the question that has been nagging us all, I'm sure: how easy is it to pirate software / find said?


Umm, not sure where the Administrators' stance is on this so I will wait for them to give me the 'OK' before posting stuff about illegally transfering stolen software. ;). Really not sure how this would be part of why the OS is better ("lookit all the illegal stuff you can do with Such and Such OS!") Although if one of the admins replies I will give my stance and point out some programs. ;).

Taku Mizu wrote:
XP always makes me think of bad emoticons. I mean, look at it! It's a squinty-tounge-sticker-outer guy! :x


*hearty chuckle*, that smiley on here looks evil. :*hearty chuckle*:


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 Post subject: Re: Replies to some stuff
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2002 08:40 
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Spart wrote:
Scott wrote:
And, the question that has been nagging us all, I'm sure: how easy is it to pirate software / find said?


Umm, not sure where the Administrators' stance is on this so I will wait for them to give me the 'OK' before posting stuff about illegally transfering stolen software. ;). Really not sure how this would be part of why the OS is better ("lookit all the illegal stuff you can do with Such and Such OS!") Although if one of the admins replies I will give my stance and point out some programs. ;).


Oh, I'm sure that the Rum Monkeys don't care.

Looking over your last post... that stuff is expensive.

And answering for Nick, since he has bitched about to me in the past, he has no money, and neither does any self-respecting college student. :P

[s]

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Hello I hope this is the correct topic.

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It's the internet connection.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2002 11:40 
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Just so everyone's clear, we're not endorsing, condoning etc. software piracy, so if you get MS heavies coming round to beat you up because of stuff you post on here, it's your responsibility, k? :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2002 15:23 
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ok I[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]ve read through the list.

to spare everyone im not going to debate every little thing, but suffice to say none of those are valid reasons why a Mac is better.

The majority of what you said is simple opinion, and holds no water in a real debate.

For the general user its a cost issue, and it still holds true that a PC can cost half of what a Mac costs.

taken from the mac store:
? Power Mac G4 Dual 1GHz w/167MHz system bus
? 1GB PC2700 DDR SDRAM - 2 DIMMs
? 2x120GB Ultra ATA drive
? Optical 1 - Apple SuperDrive
? Optical 2 - None
? NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium dual-display w/128MB DDR
? 56K internal modem
? Apple Pro Keyboard - U.S. English
? Mac OS - U.S. English
? APP for Power Mac (w/ or w/o display) - Enrollment Kit

now, from alienware, a system that would run circles around a mac:
Mj12 DDR:
Dual Athlon 2100, 266 mhz FSB
1GB ddr sdram w/ECC
2x120GB UltraATA 7200rpm 8mb cache. (doesn[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t mention RPM on the mac)
optical drive: Pioneer DVR-A04- ide- DVD-RW (runs circles around the "superdrive")
Nvidia Geforce4 ti 4400 128mb dual moniter
Windows XP pro
Keyboard and mouse
3 year on site warranty

$3232.

add in the cost of moniters and peripherals and there is absolutely no excuse to get a Mac.

Not to mention that a person can build a system on their own for much cheaper than this.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2002 19:25 
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Xulien wrote:
ok I[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]ve read through the list.

to spare everyone im not going to debate every little thing, but suffice to say none of those are valid reasons why a Mac is better.

The majority of what you said is simple opinion, and holds no water in a real debate.


Almost everything I stated in that list was a fact. Almost all of them a real feature in a real operating system. Can you really say it's my opinion that those are features? :roll:

Xulien wrote:
For the general user its a cost issue, and it still holds true that a PC can cost half of what a Mac costs.

taken from the mac store:
? Power Mac G4 Dual 1GHz w/167MHz system bus
? 1GB PC2700 DDR SDRAM - 2 DIMMs
? 2x120GB Ultra ATA drive
? Optical 1 - Apple SuperDrive
? Optical 2 - None
? NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium dual-display w/128MB DDR
? 56K internal modem
? Apple Pro Keyboard - U.S. English
? Mac OS - U.S. English
? APP for Power Mac (w/ or w/o display) - Enrollment Kit


You pay extra money for luxury cars. Consider (high end) Apples to be luxury computers. Apple spends wads of cash on developing Mac OS X, and it comes out in the price of some of the computers.

Xulien wrote:
now, from alienware, a system that would run circles around a mac:
Mj12 DDR:
Dual Athlon 2100, 266 mhz FSB
1GB ddr sdram w/ECC


Actually they would compete quite well. Keep in mind that the FSB is a DDR FSB, and real-world it would be pretty similar in performance to the FSB on the low end PowerMac.

Xulien wrote:
2x120GB UltraATA 7200rpm 8mb cache. (doesn[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t mention RPM on the mac)
optical drive: Pioneer DVR-A04- ide- DVD-RW (runs circles around the "superdrive")


FEAR not, they are 7200rpm drives.

As for the Poineer AO4, it's the same drive as the one in the PowerMac. Apple just calls it the SuperDrive for marketing purposes.

Also, the Dual 1.25GHz G4 will run circles around the Athlon in DVD encode (The G4's vector unit excells in such tasks.)

Xulien wrote:
Nvidia Geforce4 ti 4400 128mb dual moniter


The card in the Mac is essentially the same. Keep in mind that nVidia designs chips and specs, other companies build the actual cards. The manufacturer for the Mac version (can't remember who) builds them with ADC [a great interface used by Apple's monitors, carries DVI, power, and two USB, fewer cords scattered all over.] and one standard DVI port. They are also flashed and the ROM overwritten to ensure compatibility.

Xulien wrote:
Windows XP pro
Keyboard and mouse
3 year on site warranty

$3232.


XP is considered a feature? :p

And the PowerMac does cost $1,316 more than the AlienWare system you listed.

In any event, that price can't be true. Since you must not know about some of the obvious features of the PowerMac, I will configure my own system. ;)

From the AlienWare Configurator:

MJ12 DDR
Dual AMD Athlon MP 2100, 266MHz FSB
1GB DDR SDRAM w/ECC
3ware Escalade 7210 IDE RAID Controller (because the PowerMac also has a built in RAID controller.
2x120GB Western Digital UltraATA 7200RPM 8MB Cache.
Pioneer DVR-A04- IDE - DVD-RW
nVidia? Geforce4 Ti 4400 w/128MB Dual Monitor
KoolMaxx Video Cooling System (The PowerMac has built in cooling for the AGP card, better cool that GeForce 4 Ti somehow on the PC)
Siig IEEE 1394 Firewire PCI Card (The PowerMac has built in Firewire.)
SoundBlaster Live! 5.1 (Got the cheaper one to be more in line with the PowerMac's built in Digital Audio)
Intel? PRO/100 S Desktop Adapter (Fastest I could get, PowerMac comes with built in Gigabit Ethernet.)
US Robotics V.90 56K Internal Voice/Fax/Data (The PowerMac comes with a 56k Modem as well.)
Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Microsoft IntelliMouse Explorer USB 3.0 (that must be a typo, USB 3.0 isn't even a specification yet ;) )
Microsoft? Windows? XP Professional
Microsoft Works Suite 2002 (because the PowerMac comes with AppleWorks 6.)
Aliencare Toll-Free 3-Year 24/7 ONSITE Warranty

Price: $4195 before tax and shipping.

Xulien wrote:
add in the cost of moniters and peripherals and there is absolutely no excuse to get a Mac.


I don't see where you are getting this. You can get Apple displays w/rebates (like 200 off on every 17 inch your purchase.) Personally, I would get dual 17" Apple Studio Displays (Best dollar/pixel ratio, and the 17 inchers from Apple have great quality.) Instead of using VGA and getting artifacts and whatnot when converted back to digital for use with the LCD's that you would get with the AlienWare machine, the PowerMac is digital all the way.

Xulien wrote:
Not to mention that a person can build a system on their own for much cheaper than this.


:roll:

You said for the general user. The general user wont know how to make his own PC. Also you wont get all the tech support and system warranties that you could otherwise. For the general user, it is too much of a hassle. In any event Mac systems are already well built (part of why the price is higher.)

You must also consider the Total Cost of Ownership. This includes replacing parts not covered under warranty, upgrading the more costly Windows, investing in virus protection programs and all those other good things to keep Windows in a somewhat-functional state.

As for those specs I listed earlier, here is an AlienWare computer with those specs:

AlienWare Grey? (cheapest base config)
AMD Athlon XP 1800+
512MB RAM
80GB HD
Pioneer DVR-A04 - IDE - DVD-RW
GeForce4 MX 64MB
No Video Cooling system (GeForce 4 MX doesn't need it.)
SoundBlaster Live! 5.1 (To be inline with the iMac's built in Digital Audio.)
Intel? PRO/100 S Desktop Adapter
US Robotics V.90 56k Internal Voice/Fax/Data
NEC 18" LCD1880SX MultiSync LCD (compared with the iMac's 17" widescreen display [cinematic 16:9 aspect ratio.])
Microsoft Keyboard/Mouse
Microsoft? Windows? XP Professional (to get some of the functionality included with Mac OS X.)
Microsoft Works Suite 2002 (iMac comes with AppleWorks 6 among other things.)
Aliencare Toll-Free 3-Year 24/7 ONSITE Warranty

Total Cost: $3652

Now for the iMac:

800MHz G4 (Don't make me go through and explain the differences between RISC and SISC proccessors, PowerPC architecture and x86 architecture, vector units, etc. It wont be pretty, and it will only make you look stupid. ;) )
512MB RAM
80GB HD
Pioneer DVR-A04 AKA SuperDrive
GeForce4 MX 64MB
Built in Digital Audio/external Apple Pro Speakers.
10/1000BaseT Ethernet
56k Modem
17" Widescreen (16:9) display.
Apple Pro Keyboard/Mouse
Mac OS X and Mac OS 9
AppleWorks 6 and a bunch of other programs.
Applecare Protection Plan (3 Year)

Total Cost: $2,298

Tell me if you want me to compare the Xserve (rackmount) to the competition.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2002 23:04 
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how many people get a bargain system and then get a flat screen?

that[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]s insane.

oh and the luxury argument just proves me right, most people don[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t drive luxury cars, you are paying far more for essentially the same thing, and most of the "features" you will NEVER use.

The g4 doesn[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t come with built in RAID, i checked that.

you don[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t need koolmax, unless you are overclocking.

few people actually have a need for firewire.

if you have both a network card and a modem, then chances are you are wasting money on the modem.

no need for the extra special mouse.


That system is designed to run 2 moniters. And two 17s wont cut it, i would go with at least 21". (again, nobody gets flat screens unless they have some burning need, and even then they are still cheaper on a PC)
with a mac, you have two options to fix this stupid situation. you either buy a horribly overpriced moniter that is of the same quality as a PC moniter that is far cheaper, or you get an incredibly overpriced adapter and then get a decent moniter.

A mac is in no way "better built". I[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]ve only had one pc break on me, and that was a laptop that got wet. I still have a 386 sitting in my basement that has been running 24/7 (barring power outages) since the day we got it.

but since you brought it up, what do you do if a mac breaks? if i need something i can just go down to my local comp supply store and pick it up. Mac users have to order.

any way you look at it, freedom to choose your equipment beats being locked into buying all your stuff from one company.

BTW, if moto proccesors are so much better, then why are their so many rumors about macs going to an x86 proc?


But just on a OS vs OS debate, windows wins outright.
2000, and for the most part XP doesn[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t crash. Plus you don[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t have to worry about programs not running with you OS.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2002 23:19 
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oh and before i forget,

in a flat out proccesing contest a 2.4ghz p4 beats out both dual athlon and xeon systems.

so really the only people who need dual procs are 3D graphics people, and they would be much better served by a custom built system than the stuff apple feeds you.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2002 23:30 
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I will be back to reply to this later..

And FYI Moto procs do suck compared to what IBM will be giving us.

At the next Microprocessor Forum, they will be introducing a PowerPC based off of the Power4 series (a chip that costs ~10k.), only cheaper and optimized for high end desktops.

Those rumors are from people who crave big numbers but run puny G3 iMacs. Don't pay attention to the assholes. ;) It would be suicide to go x86 anyway, if you want me to explain why I will.

Time to go watch a movie..


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 01:59 
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Xulien wrote:
how many people get a bargain system and then get a flat screen?

that[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]s insane.


Change the iMac to an eMac (which has a built in 17" CRT) and you drop 400 bucks off the price.

Xulien wrote:
oh and the luxury argument just proves me right, most people don[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t drive luxury cars, you are paying far more for essentially the same thing, and most of the "features" you will NEVER use.


You've never used Mac OS X, so you should really keep quiet. ;) I could list features I don't use, but I don't really know all that much about them, being as I don't use them...you didn't read the list, did you? Your statement that it was all opinion proves that fact. Either that or you just skimmed through it.

As for the luxury tax, many of the low end computers are very good deals, as is the high end Xserve. The little 'tax' really only applies to the PowerMac and PowerBook. Why? Apple may be a hardware company like any other, but they actively (very, very, actively) develop an Operating System and several pieces of top notch software, some of which is given away for free. They have to make up for that. Apple doesn't have fat margins on their computers in the end, 32 million dollars profit on 1.6 billion dollars in sales. That isn't much. The good news is that their marketshare is growing.

Xulien wrote:
The g4 doesn[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t come with built in RAID, i checked that.


Eh, you are right, sort of. Mac OS X does do software RAID though, level 0 and 1 I believe.

Xulien wrote:
you don[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t need koolmax, unless you are overclocking.


Considering the cooling system that the PowerMac has (have you seen that freaking heat sink! Also note the giganto fan that is inside, you can only see it from the back view. Do this, if you have Quicktime for Windows, go and load the one where you can open up the case and spin it around, get it to where its at the back and open. The fan is to the top left of the giganto-sink. That bastard must be 8 inches in diameter at least! The cooling system is variable though, so if you don't overclock the PowerMac the fan should stay pretty quiet unless the room temp is like 110? or something. :*hearty chuckle*: )

Xulien wrote:
few people actually have a need for firewire.


:roll: That doesn't change the fact that every Mac comes with it built in. Use is not as widespread on the PC side, but the peripherals are there...don't want to go internal? Like to share a hard drive between two comps? Firewire is the best solution, especially if you have a portable. It's also faster than USB 2, though USB 2 is rated 80Mb/s (10MB/s) faster than Firewire, in the real world it works about half as fast. It's just kind of a 'me-too' thing for Intel.

Xulien wrote:
if you have both a network card and a modem, then chances are you are wasting money on the modem.


Ha. Where I live, high speed internet access is only availble through satelite. I use the modem port for connecting to the internet and the ethernet port for setting up a small LAN when I need one.

Xulien wrote:
no need for the extra special mouse.


You are right. Take 0$ off of the price, as that is how much more it costs.

Xulien wrote:
That system is designed to run 2 moniters. And two 17s wont cut it, i would go with at least 21". (again, nobody gets flat screens unless they have some burning need, and even then they are still cheaper on a PC)


That is a matter of personal opinion. You can use the PC displays with a Mac.

Xulien wrote:
with a mac, you have two options to fix this stupid situation. you either buy a horribly overpriced moniter that is of the same quality as a PC moniter that is far cheaper, or you get an incredibly overpriced adapter and then get a decent moniter.


Give me the prices of a 15" LCD display, a 17" LCD display, a 21" display, and a 23" inch LCD display on the PC side, all with DVI connects (VGA sucks major ass with LCD's, especially the higher resolution ones.) Then we can compare the prices to the prices of Apple's monitors.

As for the adapter, if you aren't going to use a DVI display or an ADC display and instead go with the VGA, do the smart thing and get a cheap vid card with the Mac. Sell it on eBay, and use the money you get from that/the money you saved not buying a mac card to buy a PC one. Flash the card and away you go.

Xulien wrote:
A mac is in no way "better built". I[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]ve only had one pc break on me, and that was a laptop that got wet. I still have a 386 sitting in my basement that has been running 24/7 (barring power outages) since the day we got it.


Just because your personal experiences with whatever systems you buy are good, doesn't mean the majority of the PC industry makes quality machines. There is only one computer manufacturer on the Mac side, and the production quality is top notch.

Xulien wrote:
but since you brought it up, what do you do if a mac breaks? if i need something i can just go down to my local comp supply store and pick it up. Mac users have to order.


Nah, take it to an AASP (Apple Authorize Service Providor) and they can replace it. There are several.

Xulien wrote:
any way you look at it, freedom to choose your equipment beats being locked into buying all your stuff from one company.


You aren't locked into buying anything but the CPU from them. Everything else is up to you.

Xulien wrote:
But just on a OS vs OS debate, windows wins outright.
2000, and for the most part XP doesn[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t crash. Plus you don[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t have to worry about programs not running with you OS.


OS X doesn't crash. How the hell are you getting that they win outright?

As for programs that don't run with your OS, I can name a lot of games and apps that don't run on Windows. A majority of the apps I run are Mac-only.

Sure, there are billions of dime-a-dozen apps available for Windows. But what the hell are they all worth in the end? what user needs a program designed to keep track of how rusted out his lawn mower is?

Xulien, so far the only valid argument you have given is that the PowerMac doesn't do hardware RAID (at least without a PCI card.) And even then you were only half right. :*hearty chuckle*: :P


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 04:43 
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Wow. I'm gonna have to agree with most of Spart's post. I couldn't have said it better myself.
No really I couldn't have. :-?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 04:59 
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You could at least post something of content and stop sucking up to people who are smarter than you.

:*hearty chuckle*: :P

Carry on. :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 05:19 
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ah, so being half the price isnt a valid argument?

coulda fooled me......

BTW, how do you explain the 95% of computer users going with a PC instead of a mac?

if macs are so much better then shouldn[I AM TOO STUPID TO USE AN APOSTROPHE]t we see people flocking to them in droves?

in real world situations people have learned that its better to have multiple choices for hardware than one single company running the show.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 05:25 
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I'm still going to say that the mac has no advantages over a PC when it comes to imaging, it's just that the professional people are used to the macintosh computers because they learned on them.

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